What this post will explore is the misgivings of Poland’s
characterization. This will just be a quick rundown of why he was characterized
the way that he was. I’ll conclude with a brief critique of Himaruya’s approach
to the subject.
Poor Creator Choice:
A common reaction in the fandom is complete bewilderment at Himaruya’s
characterization of Poland. No Polish cultural stereotypes implicate cross-dressing or speaking in a Nagoya (school girl/ valley girl) accent.
Poland’s “high-schooler”
speech was a creative choice made by Himaruya (vol 1 bio), albeit in poor taste.
“Also, his Nagoya high schooler-like speech is just a personal preference of the artist.”
In the
fourth original chapter, Himaruya also confirms that this choice was pointless;
in other words, there was no real meaning or significance to it. He did it
because it was his preference.
Sources: Hetarchive.net/ Poland + Hetarchive, notes & etc + Hetarchive, main story chapter 4.
When
you portray—let alone personify—another culture, a vast degree of
consciousness and discretion must be exercised. While Poland’s initial design as a girl
influenced the cross-dressing trope, it doesn’t make it any less of a bad decision
on his part.
Source: Bamboo Thicket (Eng trans., Hetarchive, July 23, 2008).
Character Notes:
Other criticisms of Poland’s character have to do with how
incompetent, silly, and unserious he comes off as. I’m not here to argue
against that. What I am here to disprove is the claim that this was done with
no meaning behind it.
That’s not true. Again, while it’s poorly done in taste, it
still has a purpose to Poland’s character.
He’s described as a shy and anxious person who becomes weird
to hide this sensitivity.
Source: Hetarchive.net/ Poland
Ex:When he and Lithuania first form their union. He initially didn’t want to talk to Lithuania but later adopts an ‘eccentric’ casing to hide behind.
Avoidance, Underuse,
and Reformulation (?)
As Hetarchive’s profile on him has already pointed out, over the
years, Poland’s tendency to cross-dress has “toned down.” In other words, the
trope isn’t as common anymore.
This is an ongoing trend in Himaruya’s content that I’ve
picked up on over the years. It’s clear that he’s learned from his mistakes by
discarding harmful, insensitive, and ignorant portrayals of the characters.
However, what disappoints me is that rather than acknowledging these mistakes,
he has chosen not to comment on the matter. This is more harmful in my opinion
because it lets the pot of discourse stew and boil in an unresolved,
discombobulated mess.
ella, i really respect all the posts you’ve made over the years and your analytical skills, and i think you’re a very smart person and a great contributor to this fandom. however, i have to disagree strongly with this post. why is poland crossdressing offensive, in your opinion, in the first place? i have seen many polish fans criticize it, that’s true, but their reasoning for doing so usually boils down to conservatism. they find it culturally offensive because in polish culture there is a strong trend of conservatism and men crossdressing, or being feminine at all or – lets just cut to the chase – being gay, is seen as strange and wrong by many. i have never seen another reason given for WHY his femininity is supposedly offensive.
you could argue that even if its wrong, to be accurate feliks’s character should reflect the conservatism of polish culture. however i would have to really disagree with that as well. in poland, just as is the case with all countries, there is still diversity among the citizens; there is still an lgbt culture there and there are still lgbt people there. why should the dominant social conservatism be the aspect of polish culture that gets embodied and turned into an emblem of the whole nation? why cant the nation be represented by a character who is strongly implied to be gay?
as a gay guy i would ask you to please re-examine why you consider feliks’s femininity to be a “mistake” because honestly, there doesn’t need to be a “reason” for a male character to be feminine, and it is okay for male characters – and indeed real life men – to be feminine.
Hello!
Thank
you for your comments and contribution to the discussion. I will elaborate on
what I said. I understand and recognize that I could have distinguished the
scenarios more clearly.
My
argument wasn’t that cross-dressing itself or a man being more feminine was
offensive. I’m an avid supporter of the LGBTQ+ community, and I’m truly sorry
if my OP came off as anything other. What I did say was that since Hetalia in
canon is predicated on stereotypes and because there is no Polish cultural
stereotype that includes cross-dressing, it wouldn’t make sense for
cross-dressing to be a critical aspect of Poland’s character. He’s personifying
a culture based on a generalization. In no way does this mean to negate or
dismiss the LGBTQ + community in Poland.
My
fault was the problematic implications that Himaruya’s model of stereotypes has
if he makes Poland’s cross-dressing central to the character. It would imply
that Poland is stereotyped for their cross-dressing, which it isn’t. As you
mentioned, Poland is generally more conservative. Now, this doesn’t mean that
if Poland cross-dresses in canon that it would be inherently offensive and
automatically be equated to a Polish stereotype. What I could have made clearer
is that it’s the fact that it’s integral to his character that it is, because
it would it would imply a larger reflection on Polish culture in whole. Again,
it’s not the cross-dressing that’s offensive.
I’ll
draw a similar example with France. France cross-dresses too; however, it’s not
something central to his character. You see it in the Magical Strike AU and a
couple Holiday Events, but that’s not a trademark aspect of France when he
normally appears in canon. Therefore, France isn’t trademarked for
cross-dressing, even though it’s something he does. It doesn’t reflect on the
French culture in whole and yet still opens the possibility for fair representation.
Meanwhile, Poland in earlier characterizations was well-known for his
cross-dressing. It was central to his character. With such a conservative
culture, I can understand why Polish fans would be upset.
Lastly,
fanon should always allow for different, unique interpretations. The nations can
have any sexualities or romantic orientations that they believe would be
applicable.
Moreover,
I’ve already gone on the record to prove that this diversity is also represented
in canon. The issue at hand was more of an accurate representation of culture
and what national identities are paramount for. What goes on in the personal
sphere shouldn’t be at the forefront of the cultural stereotype. That’s why I
believe that the personal and cultural identities of the nations need to be separated.
Their personal identities shouldn’t be
conflated with the prominent aspects of the cultures that they represent,
otherwise it leads to a slippery slope where unrepresentative assumptions can
be made. This is why when asked I’ve never given a concrete answer or assigned
labels because of the generalized implications it would cause, not to mention
that I don’t wish to limit how others perceive the characters’ sexualities and orientations
to be. This applies to both sides of the
equation, straight or LGBTQ+.
Cultural stereotypes should be neutral to
sexual and romantic orientations and gender identities. For example, what
Germany is known for by virtue of stereotypes is beer, wurst, blond hair, and
blue eyes, hence those qualities would be emphasized more. In his personal
life, where he’s just a regular person, his sexual and romantic orientation
would not be reflective of his culture and would not tie back to the entire
nation. It could be whatever the fan interprets or decides to adopt in their
characterization and wouldn’t matter at all.
I
hope this made sense. These are the posts I mentioned if you would like to verify.
This has always been my opinion on the matter [x] [x]
What this post will explore is the misgivings of Poland’s
characterization. This will just be a quick rundown of why he was characterized
the way that he was. I’ll conclude with a brief critique of Himaruya’s approach
to the subject.
Poor Creator Choice:
A common reaction in the fandom is complete bewilderment at Himaruya’s
characterization of Poland. No Polish cultural stereotypes implicate cross-dressing or speaking in a Nagoya (school girl/ valley girl) accent.
Poland’s “high-schooler”
speech was a creative choice made by Himaruya (vol 1 bio), albeit in poor taste.
“Also, his Nagoya high schooler-like speech is just a personal preference of the artist.”
In the
fourth original chapter, Himaruya also confirms that this choice was pointless;
in other words, there was no real meaning or significance to it. He did it
because it was his preference.
Sources: Hetarchive.net/ Poland + Hetarchive, notes & etc + Hetarchive, main story chapter 4.
When
you portray—let alone personify—another culture, a vast degree of
consciousness and discretion must be exercised. While Poland’s initial design as a girl
influenced the cross-dressing trope, it doesn’t make it any less of a bad decision
on his part.
Source: Bamboo Thicket (Eng trans., Hetarchive, July 23, 2008).
Character Notes:
Other criticisms of Poland’s character have to do with how
incompetent, silly, and unserious he comes off as. I’m not here to argue
against that. What I am here to disprove is the claim that this was done with
no meaning behind it.
That’s not true. Again, while it’s poorly done in taste, it
still has a purpose to Poland’s character.
He’s described as a shy and anxious person who becomes weird
to hide this sensitivity.
Source: Hetarchive.net/ Poland
Ex:When he and Lithuania first form their union. He initially didn’t want to talk to Lithuania but later adopts an ‘eccentric’ casing to hide behind.
Avoidance, Underuse,
and Reformulation (?)
As Hetarchive’s profile on him has already pointed out, over the
years, Poland’s tendency to cross-dress has “toned down.” In other words, the
trope isn’t as common anymore.
This is an ongoing trend in Himaruya’s content that I’ve
picked up on over the years. It’s clear that he’s learned from his mistakes by
discarding harmful, insensitive, and ignorant portrayals of the characters.
However, what disappoints me is that rather than acknowledging these mistakes,
he has chosen not to comment on the matter. This is more harmful in my opinion
because it lets the pot of discourse stew and boil in an unresolved,
discombobulated mess.
Coming in late to class with a sarcastic teacher like
For me, it’s always a debate between Poland or Austria. Poland
wins because he’s more confident in his looks (despite being an overall anxious
person).
I’m not ignoring requests for a characterization post. It’ll
be a separate thing later on.
Anyways, the answer as to why Poland speaks like a valley girl
and cross-dresses is pretty underwhelming and anticlimactic. There isn’t all
that much to say.
Post coming up tonight!
Horrible. It’s total, unequivocal, and pervasive control.
They torture him out of boredom
Ex: They asked him to stop a tank with his body (Volume 5).
They punish him if he doesn’t meet their unrealistic expectations [x].
He plays no part in national elections and can’t do anything to prevent against fraud and illegitimacy [x].
Ironically, his 2010 Halloween costume sums up the relationship best:
“The polar bear Putin put a collar on.”
Source: Bamboo Thicket (Eng. trans, Hetarchive, Nov 7th, 2010)
Unquantifiable. He undercooked a sausage using a sausage roaster.
Source:
Bamboo Thicket (Eng. Trans, Hetarchive, Nov 29, 2010)
TRIGGER WARNING: Mentions of pedophilia and sexual assault.
A/N: I’m going to be upfront by saying that this ask was incredibly
frustrating to me. Your summarization of my arguments couldn’t be any farther
from my thesis. I’ll link back to quotes in previous posts, but man… with all
due respect, I have no clue how you managed to come up with these conclusions.
I’m not going to sit
here and re-argue what I’ve already said. The original post is up for viewing [x],
so I’m just going to summarize and clarify things again.
You: Are you arguing that joking about pedophilia doesn’t normalize or
silence its survivors?
My original argument: Joke culture has changed dramatically over the
years. We’ve become more conscious of the meaning behind our words – which includes
jokes – and how they can reproduce harmful assumptions.
In other words, I was saying how rethinking
our words prevents the harmful normalization of these sensitive subjects.
Relevant Quote:
“Does that mean that he advocates for sexual assault and
pedophilia? No.
Were the
jokes made in poor taste? Yes,
100%.
So, why now? Why is it only now that these
jokes are resurfacing and provoking a negative reaction? Why weren’t they
burned at the media stake like they are today?
Context and timing are critical to
understanding why.
As I’ve mentioned, society has grown more
conscious of the type of humour we employ and at whose expense it befalls onto.
Newer social movements have made us rethink how our society is constructed,
which includes the meaning and similar construction behind our words and how
they can perpetuate and reproduce harmful assumptions.”
You:
You’re defending James Gunn and Himaruya.
My original argument: I criticized the harmful and offensive tweets/ tropes
they used several times in the post.
They used shock humour in poor taste. Nonetheless, they had no malintent
towards the groups implicated. What
I did defend was how they were capable of learning from their past mistakes. I
believe in the ability to evolve and change, which includes a more conscious
understanding of how even unserious things like humour can have adverse
cultural consequences.
People
shouldn’t be defined by their past if they’ve proven to have learned from it. I
can support their present character without condoning the things they did. Not
everything is black and white like you portray it. Just because I defend one
aspect of a person doesn’t mean that I inherently support everything they do or
have done. I ask that you look back through the post and count how many times I
criticized Himaruya and expressed revulsion at his early content.
Recommendation: Philip DeFranco does a good job covering how cancel
and outrage culture acts as the antithesis to individual growth and character
(ex: the James Gunn situation and more recently David Dobrik’s past tweets). If
we keep holding people accountable for stupid tweets that they made in the past,
how are we going to progress as a society when we don’t even permit it?
You:
Both make content with racist/ imperialist undertones.
My response: Hetalia doesn’t promote imperialism, and it isn’t
racist. I’ve dedicated a whole post using primary source material and an
academic peer-reviewed article that maintains the same thesis [x]. I have yet to
see anyone use actual source material to support your argument.
You:
You seem to think white-washing and race-bending a character for cultural accuracy
are morally equivalent.
My response: Please don’t put words in my mouth and don’t take my
answer out of context [x].
For one
thing, the nations don’t have races. Because they represent several groups of
people, Himaruya was smart enough not to assign them one.
I’ve
always agreed on that notion that Seychelles skin tone should be much darker.
In the OP you mention, I don’t even form a definitive stance. What the anon had
commented is that some fans inaccurately make Spain and Portugal dark-skinned
(not to be confused with tan) when traditional ethnic Spaniards and Portuguese peoples aren’t.
The
question I proposed is if Seychelles’ skin tone in fanon is correctly adjusted,
why should fans get mad when actual people from Spain and Portugal get
similarly upset when their personifications are given darker skin tones than
what is culturally accurate? It’s a double-standard. Why should one move for
cultural accuracy be favored over the other?
Moreover,
Hetalia itself has nothing to do with
white-washing or legitimate issues of achieving diverse race representation in
the media. It has to do with the portrayal of nation-centric personifications.
While fanon aims for more cultural accuracy than canon, which is predicated
more on stereotypes, Spaniard and Portuguese are only stereotyped for being tanned.
Lastly,
although you didn’t mention this, I could have clarified this better before. As
mentioned, while Hetalia is based on world stereotypes (which aren’t 100%
accurate), fanon tends to tweak the appearances of characters to attain further
cultural accuracy.
For
example, the American stereotype is the blond and blue-eyed golden boy. On the
other hand, I’ve seen America depicted as African-American. This is 100% okay!
It’s culturally accurate, regardless if it doesn’t fit the stereotype. America’s
racialized history isn’t that well-known to the world, which explains said stereotype.
The same thing would apply to Canada too, another multicultural society. As a
POC myself, I can say that it won’t be long before ‘minorities’ (an already
politically charged word) become the majority in terms of numbers. It therefore
wouldn’t be culturally inaccurate should fans choose to tweak their appearances
to fit this mould.
Again,
the reason I’ve used Canada and America is because they were both multicultural
in origin. This is above and beyond how the world has also become increasingly
multicultural. Just know that the stereotypes Himaruya uses to make his
characters are predicated on traditional and stereotypical and/or ethnic appearances
of people from each nation.
That said, if you have a comment, please leave it below. I
want to direct the conversation to one place and would prefer not to drag this
out anymore.
Ellawritesficssometimes 